5BarX

if you are making a commercial system, assuming you only get one opportunity to make the first cross (F1) between 2 pure lines, where does it make more sense to use it?

Would it be for F1 feeder calves or F1 commercial females that make feeder calves?

I have assumed heterosis in the commercial female would make the most profitable system, but now I am questioning it.

Maybe it comes down to whether you want to use 2 lines or 3...?

Matt,
Wouldn't it depend on the breeds of cattle used in the cross. I guess my thinking is the more "terminal" the breed you are crossing with the Angus, I am assuming Angus is the constant in the cross, you would want the F1 steer. I am probably not making myself clear. But some examples,

Charolais/Angus I would say the F1 feeder calves.
Aubrac/Angus would probably be the F1 females (If they are as moderate/maternal as you have described them)

Personal opinion: I think the Hereford/Angus cross is somewhere in between. The F1 offer advantages over the straightbred Angus but only in the feedlot (FE & ADG). As far as the female the F1 tends to cover up all the problems associated with Hereford cows (udders, eyes, mothering ability).

but if you use it in the feeder calves, what are you getting? just growth?

with F1 females, you get longevity, fertility, etc. seems like you get ,more bang for your heterosis buck.

right now I plan on an Aubrac-maternal Angus cross for F1 females, then a terminal Angus bred to the F1's.

it's true that i can find a terminal Angus anywhere, but after reading the Tru-Line stuff, I feel like I need a refined line (or at least a source for one).

I get the f 1 cow cross. And I understand that most angus are teminal. That said, I think the terminal angus are proven to be inferior to other terminal breeds. Plus, you would apparently lose heteosis with the angus back cross. You should use a Simmental if you think you need black calves, a Charolais if you recognize it's more important to get good calves.

Aero,

Two-thirds of the value of crossbreeding is in the crossbred cow, one-third in the crossbred calf. That said, the crossbred cow needs to fit your environment and management to get those benefits. Crossbreeding with inappropriate biological types could produce a cow ill suited to your environment.

As far as the F1 it depends on how long you own them. If you own them thru slaughter you would get the weaning growth, the feed efficiency in the feedlot, the rate of gain in the feedlot, and then the carcass improvements (maybe CW, YG, or QG depending on your F1).

The other problem with the female end of the deal is how much more fertility do you need?? I mean if your straight bred cows are only coming in 80% bred in 45-60 days you need to start over anyway. Longevity is hard to measure, who knows how much bang you get from it.

If you dont know we calve out alot of F1 calves (Hereford cows/Angus bulls and Angus cows/Hereford bulls). I really believe it comes down to quality of the cow and bull moreso than the automatic 3% heterosis you are "supposed" to get at weaning. Just finished compling 5 years worth of weaning and yearling records that said good cows make good calves..

The only real heterosis advantage I can put my finger on here is the baldies gain better in a feedlot environment, but they do not grade (Quality) as well as the straight bred Angus. I just started raising my own Hereford replacement heifers so I have no point of reference on the straight Hereford calves, yet.

We sell almost all the baldie females, some have gone as far north as Louisville, KY (I am not telling you where you will send MikeK to critique them) . The ones we kept are really good females, not the best on the place but good. Probably better than thier mothers, how much, maybe 1-3% better at weaning hard to say. We will see about the longevity part lost one of the mothers to the baldies at 10 due to cancer eye coming on.

I guess what I am saying is the F1 steer's advantages are more measureable, but there is value in the female just harder to put on paper.

i am pretty sure Dave K has stated that his research has showed no improvement in feed efficiency with heterosis. And I havent heard any claims of better marbling.Yield - yes, but not marbling.

I guess it depends on what you mean by "feed efficiency". If you are talking about RFI, I've no idea. But if you're talking about traditional feed efficiency as measured in an ad libitem feeding situation as most feedlots do, which would just be pounds of feed per pound of growth, with the big eaters win, I think the improvement in feed efficiency with crossbred cattle is remarkable. Same with yield, provided you bring the muscle with the sire.

I think you're right about marbling. But if the dam or grandam is a black angus, shouldn't marbling be taken care of already?

No sense in trying to reinvent the wheel Horned Hereford Line 1 crossed with good functional maternal angus cow's.You'll get calves that will gain well and are effiecent in the pasture and feedlot.You had better like black baldy cow's though because they will last alot longer than your straightbred cattle.I think everyone should take a look at the Hereford's of today they are alot better than those of 15 years ago.If you want to really make a cow in my book she should be 1/2 angus 1/4 horned hereford and 1/4 shorthorn.You could breed them to any terminal bull at that point and get some good selling calves.

i have considered Aubrac-(Trask)Hereford F1 females bred to a terminal Angus. i am guessing the Trask era herefords are the ones you are referring to Double D?

reinventing he wheel is what i do well... it's a better wheel custom made for my process, but still a wheel. and you forgot to show where the Aubrac fits in... i will get rid of my Angus before my Aubracs.

MS, does anybody make linebred, calving ease, homo-dilluter, polled terminal Charolais?

arent you cute...

with the choice-select spread, it might not matter.

Why do you need polled? Just like the marbling, doesn't the Angus make em polled?

I think nearly all Charolais cattle are homozygous dilluters. If they aren't, I question the parentage.

the Aubrac-Angus cross makes them hetero polled until i can work the polled gene out.

i did not know that. does polled make you question parentage as well?

i assume you dont know of an meeting the above description?

nice topic; I vote for the crossbred cow after looking at my Hoodoo/Angus crosses this afternoon...but it really boils down to the individuals we use within the breeds...kind of an exceptional little Charolais bull that sired these cows. I believe the terminal cross should be one of complementarity moreso than heterosis...generally speaking, the crossbred cow should likely be a cross of the same biological type...sorry Beef

now i'm confused.

complementary breeding would indicate the breeds being different and filling the gaps of the other breed. how would they have the same biological type?

I agree with MikeK, as I was trying to say before the heterosis doesnt make good calves, good cows(individuals) do.

While I am sure that DaveK's research is more valid than mine, but once again in my environment with my management, the F1 gains better than the straight bred. I have 5 years of records to show that the baldies start out at the same or lighter weight and reach the end weight faster than the straightbreds. Any amount of research papers will not convince me otherwise.

No apologies necessary, MikeK. Considering the level of growth and milk in the average Angus, they can be crossed with Simmental (same biological type) or with Gelbvieh (if you need to reduce mature size ) or with a high milk, high growth Hereford!!

I would agree that the terminal cross is much more about complimentarity than hybrid vigor.

My personal feeling is that CH should be reserved for the terminal cross (as they can do it so well). However, I am sure the CH x AN female can be a good cow if one uses the correct genetics.

linebred, calving ease, homo-dilluter, polled terminal Charolais

cardinal charolais
lindskov-thiel
wienk charolais