Linebreeding full brother x full sister

BEEF · **Posted:** Sun Feb 28, 2010 12:45 pm

Has anybody mated 3 consecutive generations of full brothers to full sisters? What were the results of these matings? Did you feel like the cattle were more consistent or did something suffer enough that you discontinued the matings?

To illustrate, a full brother and full sister were produced and mated to each other. A son and a daughter from the first mating were then mated. I have seen this but have not seen anybody take the results of the second mating of full sibs and produce a third generation of full sibs.

I think I have seen both Ohlde and Jorgensen do this mating (2 generations of brother to sister) but was wondering if anybody else had done that or gone further.

Ebenezer · **Joined:** Wed Nov 21, 2007 9:45 pm **Posts:** 854

Even the best of cattle can "play out" after one generation and be too small or wimpy. Does not make them bad, just what occurs. What ancestor are you trying to "maintain" and why?

dwightelmore · **Posted:** Sun Feb 28, 2010 4:36 pm

BEEF wrote:

Has anybody mated 3 consecutive generations of full brothers to full sisters? What were the results of these matings? Did you feel like the cattle were more consistent or did something suffer enough that you discontinued the matings?

To illustrate, a full brother and full sister were produced and mated to each other. A son and a daughter from the first mating were then mated. I have seen this but have not seen anybody take the results of the second mating of full sibs and produce a third generation of full sibs.

I think I have seen both Ohlde and Jorgensen do this mating (2 generations of brother to sister) but was wondering if anybody else had done that or gone further.

If you do some researce on the JAX mice it may just blow your mind.

Ebenezer · **Joined:** Wed Nov 21, 2007 9:45 pm **Posts:** 854

I still wonder about the "why".

BEEF · **Posted:** Mon Mar 01, 2010 11:05 am

research

Morgan Hartman · **Posted:** Mon Mar 01, 2010 1:33 pm

Why not do it? It will take some time, a handful of cattle, and a little bit of work. Then you can tell us what you've found.

I'm breeding a bull to his own daughters, and will likely breed him to his daughters/grand daughters out of those matings. Why? Because they are here and I want to. It is part of a plan that includes using some other bulls over time, but only after we've gotten this first step done. Also, I will have 35 daughters to which I can breed this bull without going out and buying more cows. Once I have that set of 35 daughters, this bull will be bred to them and I'll have the process verified and when it's all done and said, he'll either be proved GDF/RTF, or he won't. In the end the only person it will likely matter to is me. So that's what I'm up to.

Good luck, Beef.

Ebenezer · **Joined:** Wed Nov 21, 2007 9:45 pm **Posts:** 854

Quote:

Why not do it? It will take some time, a handful of cattle, and a little bit of work.

You forgot the other thing that is not important: it will take money, a loss of productivity due to inbreeding and it involves a risk of exposing defects or problems that could put the whole project in the toilet. But then what's money among the 5BarX crowd? :lol:

Is the research going on with private or public dollars?

RobertMac · **Joined:** Fri Mar 24, 2006 9:30 pm **Posts:** 461

Eb wrote:

...it involves a risk of exposing defects or problems...

Isn't that what the seedstock industry should be doing...exposing and eliminating defects and problems????

Morgan wrote:

In the end the only person it will likely matter to is me.

I'm with you, Morgan!

Aero · **Posted:** Mon Mar 01, 2010 9:48 pm

Ebenezer wrote:

You forgot the other thing that is not important: it will take money, a loss of productivity due to inbreeding and it involves a risk of exposing defects or problems that could put the whole project in the toilet.

would you knowingly sell an animal with defects? would you sell an animal that you didnt know had defects because you had chosen to not look?

RobertMac · **Joined:** Fri Mar 24, 2006 9:30 pm **Posts:** 461

Aero wrote:

Ebenezer wrote:

You forgot the other thing that is not important: it will take money, a loss of productivity due to inbreeding and it involves a risk of exposing defects or problems that could put the whole project in the toilet.

would you knowingly sell an animal with defects? would you sell an animal that you didnt know had defects because you had chosen to not look?

Do most registered breeders implement management practices that hide defects so they can't see them?

W.T · **Joined:** Tue Oct 24, 2006 11:04 pm **Posts:** 35

I would not sell anything with a defect but their is a WHOLE LOTT of people that do.

RobertMac · **Joined:** Fri Mar 24, 2006 9:30 pm **Posts:** 461

Beef, back to your question...
I've had a few flush mate matings and a few sire/daughter matings...nothing out of the ordinary in either direction...just another calf held to the same standards. I'll be doing something similar to what Morgan is doing this coming breeding season. It won't be sire/daughter mating, but a flush mate brother to the sire of these cows...and two cows are flush mates to this bull.

Just my opinion, but I think, unless your are a Lents or Leonhardt, there is enough genetic variation in "purebreds" there would be little consequence to close matings except possibly exposing genetic flaws...which would be a good thing. I think "inbreeding regression" is simply a lack of "outcross heterosis"...heterosis the purebred producer is stealing from the commercial cattleman.

Aero · **Posted:** Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:25 pm

RobertMac wrote:

Do most registered breeders implement management practices that hide defects so they can't see them?

ever heard of "outcrossing"?

Aero · **Posted:** Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:27 pm

RobertMac wrote:

I think "inbreeding regression" is simply a lack of "outcross heterosis"...heterosis the purebred producer is stealing from the commercial cattleman.[/color]

dead on the money in my opinion!

Morgan Hartman · **Posted:** Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:35 pm

Ebeneezer-

Research does require some funding. Also, the amount of money spent in terms of "lost productivity" will have to be weighed against the cost of not knowing what's in the wood pile.

I am actively making sire daughter matings in order to see what is in my herd, especially in what the bull brings to the picture and to move from that knowledge point. This is the point of the research to one extent. The other point in doing it is if no defects appear, and the resultant cattle are acceptable, I have a very uniform base from which to make future matings and selections.

Further, what beef is asking about is essentially a handful of cattle. Anyone who uses the next great sensational bull on the market is conducting research too. What will these calves look like as individuals? As individuals are all the person is going to get most likely, due to the amount of variation in the continually out-crossed breed. (This thought was conjured by Aero's last quip.)

mikek · **Posted:** Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:43 pm

RobertMac wrote:

Beef, back to your question...
I've had a few flush mate matings and a few sire/daughter matings...nothing out of the ordinary in either direction...just another calf held to the same standards. I'll be doing something similar to what Morgan is doing this coming breeding season. It won't be sire/daughter mating, but a flush mate brother to the sire of these cows...and two cows are flush mates to this bull.

Just my opinion, but I think, unless your are a Lents or Leonhardt, there is enough genetic variation in "purebreds" there would be little consequence to close matings except possibly exposing genetic flaws...which would be a good thing. I think "inbreeding regression" is simply a lack of "outcross heterosis"...heterosis the purebred producer is stealing from the commercial cattleman.

VPI took a herd of registered Angus to high IBC`s{40 to 50+%ibc} ...in the 50`s and 60`s I believe was the time frame; I once had the research pamphlet on the project and results; plus some letters; and talked to the old guy who did it; maybe I sent the stuff to Larry; I forget; but if I did, I`m sure he still has it...vpi should as well......
of course, the phd researcher was strongly opposed to inbreeding from his results...but like most everyone today talking about inbreeding; he had the wrong objectives from the very beginning...

Aero · **Posted:** Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:54 pm

mikek wrote:

he had the wrong objectives from the very beginning...[/color]

performance?

mikek · **Posted:** Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:55 pm

Aero wrote:

mikek wrote:

he had the wrong objectives from the very beginning...[/color]

performance?

of course; that`s all university professors know...even way back then

Focus · **Joined:** Wed May 27, 2009 5:47 pm **Posts:** 159

IT all called inbreeding if it does not work,
IF IT WORKS WE CALL IT LINEBREEDING

mikek · **Posted:** Tue Mar 02, 2010 9:24 pm

Focus wrote:

IT all called inbreeding if it does not work,
IF IT WORKS WE CALL IT LINEBREEDING

that`s just bs from clueless breeders ...inbreeding always works :!:

5BarX

Linebreeding full brother x full sister

Who is online